Thursday, February 12, 2015

So anyway ..


This blog just sort of stopped suddenly 22 months ago.  With no farewll message or ominous comment about "moving up to UCLA in the fall so less time to post" or whatever.
Just Pffft.
What happened? I have no idea other than the rather limp explanation that life just intervened.


There was an original plan - at the outset - which was to rip and post all the odd or interesting records in our collections - and *then* stop. Perhaps even stop with an announcement.
A guy who ran (briefly) the I Forgot Clifford blog should have got a prize for the way he did this routine a few years back: - suddenly he was ripping and posting all these great free-jazz records at an alarming, or exciting,  rate. As I remember it, he was largely running the blog to share his music collection with his son, who lived far away. Bam, bam, bam, all these wonderful album rips appearing, and then he was done, had achieved his goal - , he took down all the pages of his blog, posted a handful of popular downloads at Inconstant Sol and that was it - all over, and mission accomplished.  Nice style. You can still see his old  front door (locked) at pablo-clifford.blogspot.com

So back to here, there was a big stack of records to post - or a reasonable sized stack anyway - and we started and we made some posts. Hopefully even posts that people enjoyed.
After stopping, I've thought that all those remaining records in the stack are going to get posted by others on other blogs before too long, and sure enough, quite a few have in the last 2 years, which is great to see.  But not as many as I somehow imagined. Which means the original plan is unfulfilled - to get this out-of-print music out into the public arena and maybe talk about music a bit with people (which no-one really wants to do, the talking bit, but that's another subject).

It's tough to put a lot into ripping, posting and writing - and then get so many downloads but comparatively so little feedback. Of course it's the music blogger's constant moan - that they get so little back from those they give to - why should they bother? It's a total drag to read this (yet again) - sometimes you wish they *would* just stop rather than go on moaning about it again - (and I include myself moaning).   But if you haven't experienced it, it really can be very demoralising.
Imagine sitting at a card table near the street outside your house. On the card table you have a huge stack of things - CD's, cards, leaflets, whatever :- the huge stack is the album that you posted.  People file past taking 'em. Every 100 that are taken, someone says 'thanks' or 'nice!' or says something, anything at all.  The other 99 people say nothing at all - silent, just grab and go. After they've filed past, another 100 take their place - but the ratio of communication remains the same. The demoralising part of it is not that I want to be thanked by a larger percentage of visitors, the demoralising part of it is what that maybe says (it happens over and over again) about people in general. What, only 1 person in 100 is a nice/respectful/polite person ?   And the other 99 people are shits? - cant even be bothered with the effort of 'thanks'?  That's a bit of a demoralising thought about 'what people are like'.
So I sat at my imaginary card table, saddened and despondent about my fellow human beings. Just a little bit anyway.
God knows why I would want to do that again, but I think it's time. Time to try and finish the original idea - rip a few, post a few.  Maybe 'finishing' wont ever really happen - but worth a try.
Let's see how it goes.
More soon.

67 comments:

Lucky said...

I just had a very good read, and it's a nice picture for an open blog, the one with the card table on the street. I went to this, too, and I was often frustrated, then blamed myself for being so selfish, then went silent for a time, only to come back, again and again. And one time I realized that it's that 1 of a 100 who's worth all the effort, maybe even 1 in a 1000, who's really thrilled to the bones about something unheard. If those improvising musicians cared about listeners in the beginning, they would've never done it, they would've got a nice day job with all securities and that would be that. But it's my way of seeing things, and if we can't handle the shits, we're not supposed to deal with them - there's always the email and closed blogs for an alternative, but that's closed shop and no way in suprise 1 of a 100 or thrill 1 of a 1000... ;) we're all thrilled, and we wanna thrill the world, isn't it?!?!?!?

Eric Stern said...

I know that while I try to comment when I visit a blog, often I simply don't. Not to be unkind to the people sharing their collections, just because by the time I get around to hearing something, I have forgotten where I found it.

The alternative is for me to say thank you to the poster and note that I look forward to hearing the recording. Good, but not really meaningful. Sometimes, when I can I will share a story about the musician or indicate where they are playing. (Like Borbetomagnus setting the stage at Tonic on fire when an amp exploded during an afternoon set).

Ultimately, don't feel a lack of response equals a lack of interest. I and others appreciate what you do, but simply don't know what to say other than perhaps...Thanks.

What you do is appreciated.

Oh, and thank you Lucky for all you have done.

Wallofsound said...

I, for one, look forward to your return. And you'll find I always say thank you for all you share.

Vitko said...

Go ahead serviceton. I can hardly wait your first post after a long break. I've always loved this blog and on my blog list still stubbornly standing 9 gray chairs. And another thing, I do not know, up to you to decide, but I would back that nice picture chair on a gray background.
Cheers.

Lucky said...

I second Vitko's request for the old header:

http://i.imgur.com/5sxh6kA.jpg

:)

DW said...

Welcome back!!

-Otto- said...

What should I say...

I think that's one dilemma when intending to reply to a post. And, honestly, a plain "Thanks" feels for many folks just as cheap as no comment at all. But, be that as it may, I can only speak for myself here: It is some kind of fear of punishment. There you have a post by some courageous person of something that may or may not infringe on some(-one's) right, and you, the person grabbing it, are even more afraid that some authority will sanction you if they find out what you just did, downloading something that may not be entirely legal. And just posting a "thanks" seems to be too much of a potential danger in that respect. So, if people comment, they do it oftentimes because it means something very special to them. Maybe it's a long lost album you remember fondly from some 30 or 40 years ago, or maybe it is a very rare find, or just in broad terms it is something that you feel requires more than just a "thanks". And then you overcome your fear of the authorities and you do write something.

At some point, I have thought to myself that I should thank people more frequently, and to hell with all the fear of getting caught. The person posting it took way more risk upon him/herself. So, thank you all for ever posting anything in the first place.

In the end, I think it's a question of how the copyright has developed and sanctions have become oftentimes severe. It's not only a question of who may or may not profit, but also a question of the duration of the right to royalty payments, or the tricky question of oop material where there may be no financial loss, but even that may be debated.

So, let me just say: Thank you for your dedication. Thank you for your kind spirit, and thank you for taking risks for little payback. Thank you for helping promote music that is outside of the mainstream, and thank you for helping all of us for venturing out into the wide array of unheard music.

THANK YOU!

Nick said...

Where's the link in this post?

-Otto- said...

That's a cryptic question, Nick.

Anonymous said...

People hoard hundreds of cool o.o.p-LPs on their harddrives, and at some point the individual record stops mattering and doesn't even get listened to. I myself admit I did not listen to ONE Paul Dunmall recording I got from inconstantsol, not sure I will ever do. It's soulless free jazz consumption that gets supported here. I'm aware many people here are interested and enthusiastic listeners, and sure listen to the stuff (this includes me, er, I guess unless we're talking about P.D.). But the broad majority, most of those 99 who don't say anything, just pile data folders to have all the kewl music available. It's pointless to complain about people's grab & run mentality when training them that way. Music blogs have been a forming part of that mentality for years.

DW said...

Anonymous, blame the victim much. Instead of people, say 'you'. Inconstant Sol alone has blessed me with a knowledge of Japanese Jazz that I had not previously been aware of. Knowledge, not training, is what they are going for. If "your' mentality is to d/l something which 'you' could care less about, that speaks to 'you'. Not the blogs. A turn of the last century philosopher, named George I. Gurdjieff, stated, if a value isn't placed upon something, unfortunately some will perceive that it has no value. The value these music blogs provide is knowledge.

-Otto- said...

Hey, Anonymous and DW. I don't think we need to see this as mutually exclusive. I have been guilty of downloading "stuff" for the just-in-case eventuality, and maybe also because "who knows how long the link will work and what if..." So, there's the archivist mentality present to some degree. But, at the same time, in other instances, probably even on the very same blog, I have discovered music or re-discovered music that definitely enriched me. And again, at times (less so in recent times), I find myself not always showing/expressing my appreciation to the person who made it available.

And the archivists, the arduous "Sammler" who will download things for download's sake, they will always be around. Maybe they are the folks who "like" things only because they are "rare" or otherwise esoteric and/or obscure. That's when you see these über-collectors exchanging knowledge of dates and venues and recordings -- to do the one-upmanship of what they have and know and hoard. Maybe it generates some form of pleasure, but I doubt there is much enjoyment in the music itself.

DW said...

Otto, I get your point. There are archivists, there are also hoarders. My point is that the vast majority of these blogs are all about knowledge. Getting to know about an artist or artists that time has forgotten. Knowledge, and thanks to Inconstant Sol and others, my life is enriched everyday. I am listening to Masahiko Togashi, now, with Hideo Ichikawa and Ikuo Sakurai. A sweet little piece called "Spirits Trio". It is exquisite! Three months ago I didn't know who Togashi was or his bandmates. Knowledge.

Bulkang U. Antibop said...

Somehow, free jazz consumption doesn't feel any more "soulful" when accomplished by Visa/Mastercard rather than blog. It's just as anonymous standing in the back of a dark club. There's nothing inherently wrong or lesser about this format or stage for sharing music. Hoarding, of course, is itself a particular condition (perhaps someone can speak to) that, I imagine, would tend to bleach the 'objects' of their import. And hoarding is not done any more for being cool than serial killing is done for being popular. If one wants to have porno 'available' on the HDD, okay! High-res brochure JPEGS for every motel you've ever stayed at --filling your HDD, at the touch of a button? Thrill you??! Find your support community; it's your life. Consenting adults and all that. For me, I gravitate around these people who hear things that I hear and feel things I feel... It's a natural impulse. Share thoughts, or like Otto said, have thoughts in private for some time before venturing into commenting. Strangely enough, I myself was silent or anonymously very sparsely commenting for years before I was prescribed a medication for migraine headaches. Suddenly, I'm a blogger (for once, one is grateful for side-effects!)! I'm glad to see you active, serviceton, wherever; hope you have a good time with us all!

Scraps said...

I'm Otto's example. For a long time - years - I wouldn't post, for fear of being busted. For some reason, when I suffered a stroke six years ago, when I got back, I posted. I guess that my perspective got rearranged.

I just discovered this blog, and I responded twice in the last week. It's great that it's starting up again.

Anonymous said...

Free Jazz consumption gets more selective when accomplished by buying records. The downloading culture much of the time is just random. That's what I meant with soulless. Let's say you have 982 downloaded folders grabbed from music blogs. On how many "order" buttons would you have clicked, if those 982 titles would have been available for purchase?

Ahh, and the knowledge thing again. This is all about free education, oh yeah... Well, the knowledge is available in many other places, not only at music blogs. But in music blogs you get the stuff pre-selected to a large degree (inconstantsol = always cool avant music for example), and the discographical details are all there as well - great! No time consuming own research to be done. Go to the list of musicians at inconstantsol, ohh look, there's 51 Masahiko Togashi entries. All for free. I just discovered Masahiko Togashi! Yippie! - and nothing to pay, not even say 'thanks' or anything else.

Everybody individually defines the line between randomly amassing data and treasuring up decent musical knowledge.

DW said...

Anonymous, ever hear of libraries? They, in pre-internet days were the source for knowledge gained for free. And yes, I do believe knowledge should be free. Also, if one cares there is a lot of research to done. Togashi, for instance, begin his career as a violinist at the tender age of six. A spinal injury in the 70's left him wheelchair bound for the rest of his life, but he keep playing until his death 8 years ago. I have sought out his and others because of the awareness afforded by Inconstant Sol. Amazon Japan has a slew of his CD's. The local vinyl shops sometimes have pearls. I say thanks every chance I get. Antibop is right, the purpose is societal. To find a group of like minded people to which one can share ideas with. Find your support..

Anonymous said...

Of course I heard of libraries. That's where I copied a few recordings feat. Togashi to cassette tape 20 years ago (and I don't mean this at all in a "I'm cool/far ahead" way... I just used existing structures).

Anyway I have like-minded people I share ideas with. Not on inconstantsol etc. Unlike a larger part in music blogging it's on a very personal and sympathy-based level, just like you suggest. It's on a private level. Private.

Bulkang U. Antibop said...

I see you're struggling with all this public sharing business. It's okay. Nobody's pushing you to join in. Stay with your snail mail trades and local shop, etc. That's beautiful. There's no use in fighting this "electronic public library" we all met on here. Every shop has pre-selected inventory and knowledge at the counter. Many people who couldn't make it in such an environment, those with anxiety/depression or other conditions can now have at it privately. There's an up side. Ease of access does not equate with diminished selectivity. And "random" is not a dirty word. This is a nice neighbourhood; don't let all the people flushing toilets fool you otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Sure, many little facets of what I wrote are subject of individual opinions and can be debated about endlessly. But I'm here to comment on how music blogging can be an impersonal business. I didn't bring that up. The opening poster did.

Bulkang U. Antibop said...

"If those improvising musicians cared about listeners in the beginning, they would've never done it, they would've got a nice day job with all securities and that would be that." - Lucky DaVinci, 1481.
Music itself can be an impersonal business. I remember sending out copies of my own recordings to publishers. I think I only got one response and that was a form-letter apologizing that it was a form-letter from Bob Rusch! Just ask Charles Gayle how many lint-covered pennies he collected in his coffee cup on the sidewalk. But, you keep going because it's what you do.
Maybe most links I've ever put out there have just been clicked on by a revenue-generating 'bot' and downloaded into a queue for an entropy pool in some supercomputer... All those ODE booklets and Schiano bleats are just waiting to be digested into random digits... Why dwell on that, serviceton? Keep on keepin' on! Kick 'em in the dock-suckin'-supreme pantyhose! Rip the blog world a New-ton! (i dunno what these mean exactly but they're supposed to be encouraging ;-)

Bulkang U. Antibop said...

oh! i forgot to mention! i dunno if it's you or sotise putting that picture at the bottom but i f'ing love those merrill/katz albums! baltimore f'ing oriole?! never will i f'ing marry?! (i believe those were the titles) f'ing timeless feelings.

kinabalu said...

Dear Hug(h),

I thought you were complaining about too few comments. Well, it's now 23 and running. Now, how about those Burton Greenes? Just saying.

Best regards
Hug(o)

serviceton said...

Just now had a chance to look back in: - Wow – Most responded post ever!

Lucky is right, one needs to find a way to come to terms with it [find a reason, a meaning or a rationale] – or one may as well not bother, and just shut up and stop posting anything. Other bloggers everywhere have found their rationales for continuing – so we need to do the same here somehow.
Eric Stern – Yeh I’m with you in that the comment I would always prefer to leave is one made after listening to the music. But so often, not immediately possible. But the ‘thanks I’m downloading now’ really is at least some sort of communication – and is appreciated. It’s not ‘really meaningful’ like you say, but still lets one feel that there are human beings out there. I love the Borbetomagus bushfire story – and all stories like it! Remind me to tell you of the time I accidentally pissed on Arthur Blythe’s shoes.
Vitko, DW, Otto, Lucky – thanks for your comments, appreciated. [BTW the old logo will be back – maybe sometime later on though]
Otto & Scraps – I honestly never considered that point before – that a poster or commenter felt it could be dangerous to comment – for fear of being caught for infringements of whatever kind. So thanks for mentioning that concern, that is interesting. Also possibly a real concern where you are in the world. There’s no courageousness on our behalf however. There’s nothing here that’s in print, & ‘respect musicians’ is the general policy. If for some reason we’re prosecuted for that, then at least our consciences are clear! I’ll stick the previously unspoken blog manifesto at the end of this comment.
Anonymous – You are kind of disgusted with the process, and also maybe at times with yourself into the bargain. Join the club. Although I’m not interested in the ‘culture of cool’ – I think that we have all kinds of ethical, artistic, emotional, and responsive problems living in a culture of glut. And the orgiastic freedom of information [meaning digital transmission of any arts that technology easily allows] creates an over-satiated audience. And this raised a whole set of questions about value, meaning, and the idea of ‘worth’
DW quotes Gurdjieff – “if a value isn't placed upon something, unfortunately some will perceive that it has no value” . This is a most appropriate quotation – but we need to read it at least 2 ways in this current environment, in the times we’re living in.
Anonymous , do me a favour, and come back to continue the conversation – will you? Your cynical ennui is not without justification, and in some ways I really agree. If you can be bothered, get a username, as talking to Anonymous’es ongoing is a pain in the in ass. Go on – do it, let’s talk.
Bulkang – Many thanks for your robust encouragements and perspectives from chez Antipbop. Sadly, Bob Rusch, the guy who sent you the form-letter, is apparently in parlous health at the moment. God, he has done a lot though over the years (and with so few pianos!).
The Merrill / Katz photo is Sotise’s . Helen Merrill – incredible singer and a great musician

Anonymous said...

well, what can i say, i'm one of those, who believes that just saying regular "thanks much!" is kinda...simpleton's characteristic (not actually the same with Serviceton!), hahaha! (especially, when i face all those bozopsychozo's braincrashing vocabulary freak outs in Sol)i feel like a chump, not being able to write something meaningful (exactly!) and useful, except that robotic "thanks much!", i mean it!))))) to some extent to blame my poor English and being lazy to use a translator to express my thoughts))) but don't think i have many of them to write em down usually!))) ok, so there's one more reason of that there's not a hell of a response to the work of the blogger, like your's, Serviceton, i guess...i mean, there's a few of no good speaking English followers around, so don't expect many words from us!))))

P.S. come down to work, i have two years of waiting for that New York City Artists Collective 70-s album!

Igor

Bulkang U. Antibop said...

Serviceton- I would love to hear about this Blythe urinary adventure, too. :-) Maybe, a side page or something for recording such things would be of some value? I've got a few 'insignificant' stories myself some folks might get a kick out of, I've no idea where to put 'em! But maybe that's something for a comment section or another blog entirely... This reminds me somehow of Portland Mayor Bud Clark's classic "Expose Yourself to Art" poster. On another note, I'm not surprised Rusch is not feeling well...after his run in with child abuse claims. :-(
GENERAL NOTICE TO ALL "NO GOOD ENGLISH SPEAKING FOLLOWERS:" ;-) go ahead and comment in your native language! No? That would be fun! Although, I for one enjoy seeing the personality that comes through even the most 'broken' English!
Aloha!

Anonymous said...

serviceton - about two years ago I started again to buy CDs, LPs & even commercial downloads en masse, I spent hundreds of $ on records I somehow left out in the last 15-20 years. I'm not even a fan of the physical items as such, but my relationship to the music at hand couldn't be more vital. I guess I'm terribly conservative in thinking the real places to get music from are shops, mail order, the musicians themselves. No "cynical ennui" here.

Bulkang U. Antibop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I just wanted to explain what perspective I write from (to oppose that "cynical ennui"-thing). As you, Bulkang U. Antibop, attempt to discuss that official records vs. o.o.p./r.o.i.o. material thing, let me add that most people aren't completists. So if one has a few freely downloaded o.o.p.-LPs of musician X on the harddrive - oh the education and knowledge - what motivation is there to buy more? I'm sure that for many downloaders, the music they get from blogs replaces buying official releases.

Of course I will get an answer with this from somebody who is a serious collector, buys tons of official music and is happy about getting a few rare pearls from some blog everyonce in a while. Or from somebody who got aware of a musician here and then started to delve also into the available catalogue. That's all great. But I'm not talking about you here. I'm talking about the folks who have a representative discographical spectrum of Togashi in their collection including zero purchased items.
Musicians and creative labels complain that record sales suck? I'm sure music blogging is one reason for that. The material meant to complete a musician's catalogue also competes with that musician's catalogue (no matter how good the intentions of the uploaders might be).

Scraps said...

I guess that you object to "ennui". Because you certainly live up to "cynical" with every comment you post. Even though you say you are not objecting to anyone here ("I'm not talking about you here"), still you are objecting to, well, someone bad ("folks"). Shrug.

You didn't answer serviceton's polite request to get a name. Do you object to that?


serviceton said...

Igor: - Yes it's a good point and I fully understand that when English is not one's 1st language, it's tough to maybe say things clearly that would be easy in one's native language. But really - your English is fine, your enthusiasm comes through loud and clear - don't worry about the bozopsychozo braincrashing vocabulary ! And Bulkang is right - commenting in your own language is FINE.

Bulkang - 'Urinary adventure' may be a slightly worrying description I'm thinking :-).
Seriously however,I am really shocked about what you've mentioned re Bob Rusch. I had no idea that all that came to light last year That's deeply disturbing.

Anonymous - (I hope you're the same Anonymous - I'm not being disingenuous - but sometimes it is really hard to tell and gets confusing very quick.) I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. I meant that your 'cynical ennui' applied to blogs/filesharing - and not to anything else. I agree with much/most of what you say and also commend you warmly for the purchasing path you've taken in the last couple of years. "shops, mail order, the musicians themselves" - Yes, yes and yes.
I'd like to make the point though that there's nothing here that you could buy in a shop.

serviceton said...

Here: -

No in-print recordings

Respect for musicians - Support them, or there is no next generation for the music !

Anonymous said...

scraps - I counted ten people answering here, obviously really caring for the music & its economic fate, joining a constructive discussion. But how many downloads are there for the more popular uploads? 100? 200? 300? So how many people couldn't care less about what we're talking here? Is it cynical to point that out? Really?

serviceton - I fully understand the music here is o.o.p and unofficial live recordings.
Any idea, how many people don't care for official CDs by the newer Brötzmann/Kondo-quartet, because there's already all kinds of unofficial recordings floating around? (indeed I know one guy who happily stopped buying music exactly for that reason). Any idea how many people have enough mid-70s solo-Lacy by downloading the hyper-rare Solo at Mandara - and thus see no reason anymore to buy "Stabs"? Brotherhood of Breath live in Bremen official?! Aw sorry, already got it as r.o.i.o. before it was officially released (- just like 271 other fans).
When I say the uploaded music competes with available releases it's on that level. I'm aware that doesn't apply for all uploads. But the sum of the music-blogging activity certainly has its part in changing the relevance of the actual CD-market in a bad way. I'm absolutely sure about that.

I can't see what's wrong about writing as Anonymous when there's the option to do so. If that's unwanted here, why not remove it?

Solomon said...

Glad to see you back Serviceton! I've made many great discoveries here. After hearing Rumasuma from Sonny Simmons, I went out and bought all I could of his. Same with hearing Changing Seasons by Billy Bang. I now own a copy, along with Survival Ensemble and many others. And that would have never happened without these blogs.

Exposure is so important and it is extremely lacking. It's why a lot of this music disappears.

Speaking for myself, I know these blogs have completely changed my life. I am a young musician and my growth has always came from hearing. I can't go to clubs and hear this music. I'm not around people who are playing or are interested in playing this music. I've missed out on the chance to see/hear my heroes, like Sonny Simmons and Billy Bang. So when ever I get a chance to hear something new from them, I really cherish it. And it is always a thrill!

It's a way to put myself in a moment with these musicians and learn. Every listening experience is a chance for me to grow and develop as a musician.

Although I tend to be one of those "Thank you" only people, I really appreciate the music you and others share. Maybe knowing that the music you share here will inspire someone to pickup an instrument and try to continue making music like all these great musicians will give you some comfort.

Looking forward to discovering more music. Thanks again!

Anonymous said...

Three hundred people out in the world with your product, on the other hand, who wouldn't have otherwise bought your product because they're too cheap or they really don't have the money...is not necessarily the worst thing and the end of the music business. It needs to evolve with the information age and it is, slowly, with things like crowdfunding (paying for the record before it's made), and leaving tips/donations after the experience at websites, etc. I feel your frustration at how things are going, anonymous, but like records took money out of the clubs, you can't put this genie back in the bottle, no matter how heavy you pound the guilt on. We have to move forward with constructive ideas that use this new world to support what we love.
-anonymous#560b

-Otto- said...

Good observations, #560b.

Scraps said...

"So how many people couldn't care less about what we're talking here?"

So all the people who won't join a conversation are part of the problem, and must be painted with your preferred paints?

"Is it cynical to point that out?"

Yes, it is cynical to "point that out", as if there's nothing but your view.

Really?

Really.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, it's quite clear you're talking about the assholes. What are we going to do about all the assholes. The assholes who don't love the music but would pay for it anyway just to have it, who don't love the musicians and would take from them as soon as take oatmeal from a baby. We can't do anything about them. People with no conscience, no heart? Yes, we musicians have been woefully taking their money for years now just to try to make ends meet. It's not something we like to do,...so maybe this way is preferable and we can just go back to stocking shelves for the ends-meeting. I'm not above it. :-)
-anonymous#506b

Anonymous said...

Scraps - reading your post above it appears I got the definition of "cynical" entirely wrong. ;)

Donations and crowdfunding. Great idea to kill forward-looking & independent artistic output.

Hey Andrew - nice drum solo, here's a tip for ya.

I'm out. I suddenly feel I really don't want to spend more time on this.

DW said...

Anonymous...?? You're out? Really?!! You promise???

serviceton said...

No no - he raises some really good points.
And everyone's talking about cynical as if it's a BAD thing. ;-)
I started in on some of these issues on the Devil's Lunchbox blog - hard work though.
Anonymous, we believe in anyone's right to comment anonymously, and we set up the blog that way and won't change it - inclusiveness is the idea.
Only reasons for not being Anonymous are
1. It gets confusing when 2 or more Anonymouses kick into a conversation.
2. To be more friendly

No big deal though,if you actively want to be Anon.

Without being pedantic, this blog does not have, as you suggest, any 'unofficial live recordings'. So your hypothetical re Brotherhood of Breath ROIOs doesn;t apply here. Perhaps your Steve Lacy one does. If the real nub of your view is that file sharing, and anything promoting it is eroding musicians ability to earn money, then I agree. For instance Solomon's heart-warming comments about buying stuff are indicative of an enthusiastic minority - not the overwhelming all-important majority I am sure. I guess it's just odd that you pick this particular blog to kick in with those views - we're trying to be aware, not be thoughtless, and not be evil. That's all.
You're very welcome - as is everyone - to comment.

Anonymous said...

well, of course, my English isn't that bad to keep me away from the problems that are discussed in this topic, so, with the great help of a translator, i'm heading on...i met Chairs and Sol about 5 years ago, seeking for some rare jazz and it turns like i discovered sort of an underground musical world for myself. i was not deep into imrovised music back then, so all those BYG Actuel's and other old records became a revelation for me, though i didn't understand much of accompanying information (but the main thing for me was that i knew what download button means for!). the first time i thought deeply about moral aspects of public sharing was caused by that state, set by contributors of Chairs and Sol in their blogs, not to post any record which is officially available...i guess this course on dealing with oop only sharing which is taken by blogs like these and oop-records-sharing movement in general is the way that prompts people to be (paradoxically) less consumeristic (in a bad sense) in the estimates of the life and work of an artist and those people who are helping to (let's call this) materialize one's talant, cause one of the basic ideas embodied in the work of this kind of blog is to prompt it's followers to treat the swing an artist creates as a product of his work, but not as something like a swing in the yard one's don't have to pay for a ride on which. on the other hand, as for motivation - does opportunity to have for free an oop record shared in public of some previously unknown artist serve as a stimul for some people to want to get more stuff of this artist for free even if that stuff is available officially? yes, it definitely does for some, including me...
i'm not saying that i spend a lot of money on music (for last ~ 8 years), but i spend as much as i can afford...
whether could it have tempted me to buy a record of say Tom Bruno, if i never came across the post dedicated to NYCAC record in Chairs? i strongly doubt about it...
well, i'm a follower

P.S. thank you for your understanding!

Igor

Bulkang U. Antibop said...

I like your swing analogy, Igor. I read it out loud to my wife and then I understood it.
Funny you use the phrase "let's call this" -maybe my favorite composition of Monk. It could have what we call a "bootstrap" meaning (you imagine lifting yourself up in the air by your own bootstraps -surely an impossible scenario). Well, I wondered if Monk was asked what this tune was called and he said, "Rudy, let's call this..." -and then that's what he wrote down! :-)

DW said...

Igor... “The beautiful thing is that I have a life of meaning and value before I pick up the horn. I’m not living a life predicated on the success of a record or the next gig. My life already has meaning, and when I pick up the horn, I’m picking it up as a whole person, and anything from there is just abundance.” - Peter Kuhn
Bulkang U. Antibop, thanks! I have known Peter for over 45 years. For too long I was unaware of where he was or what he was doing. Until I found him on Inconstant Sol. To me that's what these blogs represent. A wish for a shared humanity.

Bulkang U. Antibop said...

!

SOTISE said...

A Few belated thoughts/responses to this thread , though i'm not an administrator here , i am friends with "Serviceton" in the flesh so to speak, we live in the same country...

i mention this because we first became acquainted on a music blog , discussing music, and have done so ever since by telephone and in the flesh over a few beers..

That has been one of the good things about music, file sharing blogs,..... because in the non virtual sphere i live pretty much in isolation surrounded by people who have no interest in music other than as aural wall paper....

before late 2006, i had no interest whatsoever in computers or the internet...
i had an email address but never used it, then one day a friend was explaining their still baffling relationship to google, and after a few bongs and beers enthusiastically demonstrated its function... they said go ahead type something in... i typed in jimmy lyons,for no particular reason other than id been listening to one of his records earlier that day..
all of a sudden i found myself mysteriously transported to the site "Church number 9" named after a legendary but seldom heard Frank Wright record... and thus on the day i discovered the internet i stumbled across file sharing , music blogs.almost entirely whimsically..haphazardly .

That blog represented its founder's particular obsessions, the more ecstatic "Energy"...Free Jazz, Japanese noise rock, Captain Beefheart and Led Zeppelin Bootlegs...and so forth

It also espoused an ethical moral puritanism emphasising the need of artists to make a living therefore necessarily eschewing the publication of any material that was in print or readily available...
the Operative word here is publication.. sharing something online is effectively publishing it, a fact that is all to easy to forget!

Those days were different, the share's were in mp3 with no or little artwork, and at that time itunes was just a blip , there was no spotify, and certainly no Bandcamp or other commercial sites selling full lossless albums of marginal musics... the hope then,and later with Inconstant Sol , 9 grey chairs and others was not just to hang out virtually with like minded souls but perhaps more naively to introduce non mainstream music to younger people who perhaps had not been exposed to those sounds , so in a sense it was all about sharing knowledge , and discovering other people willing to talk about their own musical journeys of discovery...and importantly,magically to hear rare records beyond the reach of ones own meager purse strings.

lets not fool ourselves a lot has changed in 8 ,9 years, you can now download almost anything the latest freejazz/ improv, marginal music release,or any genre for that matter... so doubtless Anonymous #1, has a point.. and a very valid one
...

SOTISE said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SOTISE said...

For myself personally i can say ... that i continue to discover new sounds on blogs that whet the appetite , and plunge one deeper into exploration through the purchase of actual physical records and cds.. in the last half a dozen years i have bought more music than the preceding 20 combined....
no attempt at self justification here just the facts,and honestly its more than i can actually afford... i dont have a job, and i often go hungry when i splurge.... also admittedly its mostly taxpayers money.....

over consumption of music is very probably an unhealthy reaction to a perpetual persistent lingering fear of extinction or annihilation, and the perpetual existential insecurity arising from..the geo political ethos of our times...our civilization decaying ..crumbling slowly but perceptibly by the day,the environment decaying ,global warming accelerating, the fabric of society altering so rapidly etc as i said the perpetual fear of extinction decay and death....

we are heading into a fascism hitherto unknown.. a hideous corporate feudalism ..where
Selfishness and greed are enshrined as high ideals from cradle to grave everywhere one turns,corporate criminals have the mystique of poets or legendary heroes (that love of Mammon is something the human spirit deep within automatically is repulsed by , until we repeatedly kill or mortify that natural repulsion and cave in for fear of opprobrium, and for sanity's sake)

so here we congregate over the rubble, what we in fact hold most dear proof of our intrinsic value as a race.... what we love and know to be most noble,decent and true about our wretched humanity... thats what this obsessive fiddling around the margins really is to me anyway...

Lucky said...

I'm not much of a philosopher, but your thoughts above kept me thinking, Sotise. My main problem as a music listener and record buyer is - what am I to do with the knowledge that I got from listening, going to concerts, buying records, reading books about music? Like with many I got to know on the internet, I don't know anyone here around who's interested in that kind of music, the few I see on and off at concerts are mostly not the sociable types (am I...?).

And what am I allowed to do with the records? The industry wants me to buy them, play them in my lucky locus at home, and that's it. But I want to DO something with them, don't let them rot in their jackets or jewel cases, but listen to them, keep them alive - short: share my experience of listening with others, and all of a sudden this makes me a criminal, because I don't behave and stay only a consumer! A few chosen ones head their way to radio stations, or start deejaying - or (like Christian Marclay) make "art" of using records. But the rest of us live in some hidden spaces of the world, prior unconnected - now through the internet connected "somehow", and we use technology in the easiest way - and break copyrights, get involved in lawsuits because we try to be alive. Some of the sharers try to prevent it by sticking to certain "rules", such as posting only out of print records (which is still infringing copyrights, of course), or find other outlets, such as writing reviews, connecting with legal copyright holders (like destination out with fmp) and start some business.

What are we supposed to do - and what do we want? Some hide in private forums and share the newest stuff there. Others use torrents and often enough get caught in doing so. In the past we made mixtapes for friends and wanna-be's, nowadays we're sharing the albums in flac + doing scans, such on a blog like this.

More questions than answers, I fear.

SOTISE said...

Lucky ... yeah ... just what exactly are we doing here?
SHARING is really what your post is all about...
Lets explore the dichotomy(s) for a moment ...

i think we all know that SHARING is an entirely natural modus vivendi, something every child does of necessity constantly, indeed is almost compelled to do, in the crucial early periods of socialization..
its more than a modus vivendi , its our natural uncorrupted state, something crucial to our early socialization an important SURVIVAL stage in learning about ourselves in relation to others..

what's more it is also what makes us truly happy (and whole) ....UNTIL What we have had to learn to discover the world, make friends and be happy, is suddenly anathema, and the natural joy of sharing is drummed out of us, ripped from us, our spirits crushed and remoulded into submission to the dominant Neo Darwinian paradigm of COMPETITION central to modern post industrial technocratic Capitalism....

ignoring sensory evidence to the contrary we are taught that competition is natural,and that skills ,personality traits IQs are merely factors enabling us to get ahead , avantages ..the competitive edge which confers identity.and status.. Sharing runs counter to the very fabric of the civilisation we've created...

thats why we're so disembodied , and detached from one another, its the brutalisation of suppressing what is innately good... to function in this shitty hideous competitive nightmare

Lucky said...

But one product of this shitty nightmare - the internet, which has been produced by the military, as far as I know, exactly this product enables us here to "think" and write to each other. There's never only black without white, and I try to figure out for myself how I can "share" without the fear of getting struck by some shitty system. Sharing our thoughts here is a good one - and I have the feeling, the small community of improv givers in the blogosphere could do better in creating their own sub-network without the fear of being punished. SFRP and other networks have tried it - but there I never found the openness and vitality as in open blogs.

What is the solution? How can we do it? Or is this not the question, but rather that we first understand what we're dealing with, like anon #1 pushed us to think about?!?

SOTISE said...

we are forced to function in competitive world, to cheat and lie to survive to mortify and kill what brings us joy and gives us purpose...
reduced to sharing anonymously disconnected from one another,mere avatars shadows..

Everyone has their own rationalisations

but whether or not file sharers realise it publishing copyrighted materials into the aether is also a fuck you to the mechanisms which underpin capitalism...

... problematic though because of potential unintended consequences, and potential victims,namely the producers of that material who also have to survive and function in a fucked up distorted shared economic reality.

Lucky said...

I'll have a stroll outside before I come back to that - bit of a grounding into the "real" world.

Cheers, Sotise - I like to hear you thinking!

SOTISE said...

Lucky such subnetworks already exist as far as i know deep in the sub intranet, or dark net as some call it , what ends up happening is sharing of actual music on a mind boggling scale, entire discographies labelographies get shared...
with next to no discussion ,i have no interest in that , there aren't enough lifetimes let alone hours in the day to absorb what i have already bought and downloaded ... i spend 6 to 8 hours a day listening , and still cant absorb more than a fraction, which brings us back to anon 1's point about over consumption... then theres the law of diminishing returns ... the more one has the less one appreciates the parts of the whole ...

i like to listen to things repeatedly .. and find that i simply dont have time to listen to the material i've downloaded because im struggling to get through what i've bought... internet filesharing culture changes our relationship to the actual music , how can it have the same impact when theres a rush to listen to so much in a constant push to hear it all...
its communicating entire worlds of thought and complex emotions that simply cant be absorbed that way hastily in a harried and cursory fashion.

paul'scat said...

Look like anon1 jumpd from Sol contrib sect to filbert funland gayle han.

kinabalu said...

56 and counting ...

I'm not sure if I have much to add to the discussion. My thoughts on this were posted a couple of years back on Serviceton's lunchbox which can be found here:

http://thedevilslunchbox.blogspot.no/2013/02/sharing-what-exactly.html

I thnk the argumenents are still valid. Maybe just a couple of further observations. Streaming services have pretty much undercut the market for illegal downloading. These services are entirely legal, but there's a question whether artists are sufficiently compensated for making their recordings available in this manner. In any case, it doesn't compensate for ordinary cd sales. With these services, cds are definitely on their way out, though maybe not for the marginal type of music we're discussing here. More and more music is filtered through smart phones these days, and I can't walk without seeing hordes of people plugged in.

But hey, lps are coming back in fashion, satisfying the yearning for real physical objects. I find myself buying more new lps than cds anyway, even if they cost more.

Secondly, I don't share the scepticism about crowdsource funding. Artists would still have to seek funding for their releases which means they will have to take their "begging" elsewhere or finance them out of their own pockets. The idea of user pays is, I believe, on balance a good thing. After all, road building is financed through toll booths, though there are people intrinsically opposed to that, arguing that it should be paid for out of tax revenue.

But despite all the blah blah, we still push on, eh? I think even Sotise admits to that.

Bulkang U. Antibop said...

Crowdfunding does *sound* bad; like mob rule, five thousand fingers on the poor artist's instrument... But, realistically, it works like any grant process, for example. "Hi, I'm Tony Brixton and I've got six ideas here I've been cooking up, including one for a hundred tubas! Here's my projected budget and the product we'd be aiming for..." It's not like the funders get to say "only if you change tuba to tuna and add bikinis." I mean, not any more than any record company would interfere like that.
While I'm here... regarding the mention of a donation model (and these are just two examples, no?) my wife and I like to watch the RIFFTRAX audio-file descendant of MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATER 3000 from time to time and apparently they have a torrent issue, so they handle it in a very relaxed way with humor at the end of every show and a donation page on their website using paypal. I'd be interested to know if what they gain by that is anything like what they project they lose through torrents, or maybe it's enough that they don't even care?
Anyway, just thought I'd mention it as one teency example.

SOTISE said...

@Kinabalu....Who says
"Streaming services have pretty much undercut the market for illegal downloading"
can this possibly be the case ???(particularly, in this rarefied specific "Market",Purchased low quality Mp3s , undercutting pirated lossless downloads with full artwork ...mon cher H, ..pure fantasy!!!!...

SOTISE said...

i doubt that anyone has ever bought a stream of Coltrane's live in Japan...

and... even your average punter who i
isn't interested in music other than as aural wallpaper gets their favourite songs from elsewhere.... my daughter gets all her ipod songs from you tube , whats more to her generation its almost second nature the artist other than as a glamorous one dimensional cartoon doesn't even factor as a human being with rights....she once asked quite shocked how i could download films from the pirate bay .. uh dad isn't that illegal???.. when she had been doing it on you tube for months if not years.
what that tells us is that the pirate bay is synonymous with piracy to that generation but you tube isn't equivalence ...........

at present the Australian Government is proposing a multi tiered strategy to combat piracy , first blocking access to torrent bays with known illegal content, second forcing ISPs to give up infringers metadata, 3rd to send written warnings to repeated infringers, prosecuting them if they persist...

the Makers of "game of thrones "..apparently got that ball rolling when it became apparent that we are among the biggest pirates per capita in the world ... i dont know how they got their figures but they estimated that half a million Australians downloaded each of the 5 series

SOTISE said...

the last sentence of that second paragraph ought to read ... but she has absolutely no sense of the moral equivalence .

Bulkang U. Antibop said...

It makes sense that those particular Makers would have gotten that ball rolling. I remember when their cable television was first rolled out all the lobbying and litigation they went through to get VCR manufacturers to remove every "record" function from their devices. Of course, the sports fans stopped that from happening so they had to invent the descrambler box. Now they're just going to force the torrenters to invent, I don't know, some kind of metadata laundering algorithm.
It sounds a little like a "branding" issue with your daughter. The you tube brand is "official" and used by the stars and everyone, but pirate bay, well...it's got the word pirate. One of my own relatives is of the early mp3 generation and they download to check it out, feel it out. If they love it, they go back and buy it --if it's new. If it's old and it's something you can copy from the library or go in on with a friend, then maybe not, unless it's an artist they just really love and want to support. I've talked with them and they acknowledge they are conscientious about this stuff. Friends of theirs though are like "if new music's there, I'll take it, if there's no new music...life goes on? (shrug shoulders)" at the same time they're also rooting for the "Zombie Apocalypse." ;-P

lordDukkha said...

I just bought The Pop Group's Citizen Zombie because before I got really into free jazz they were one of my last favorite post punk bands. I bought a DL because the four local record shops didn't have it and I didn't want to wait for mail order. But prior to that I DL'd a few items from avax home, inconstantsol, etc.

I've gone through periods of binge harvesting links, and I sometimes feel guilty about it. Not for infringement but because I have so many that I will never listen to. I did purge some stuff a few years ago, but that can be an emotionally taxing experience. I used to work at Tower Records in Los Angeles in the late 80's and I've always had an obsession for music. I am a Coltrane completist on LP, Ayler ditto on CD, and Sun Ra I wish!

But as I've moved into a white-collar lifestyle I find myself struggling to find friends who share my musical interests. So even though I don't post often on these blogs, I do so appreciate them. They are rays of light in my life. I have DL'd and purchased Togashi, Strata Eats gems (dodgy quality CD's), and many more.

lordDukkha said...

And by all that I meant to say Thank You!

SOTISE said...

on the positive side in terms of grass roots support for artists.
http://blog.bandcamp.com/2015/03/06/dolla-dolla-bill-yall/

Bulkang U. Antibop said...

I suppose we could count this too: https://www.patreon.com
I don't yet get how customizable or uniform the pledge/gift system is, but...it's another interesting construction...

daniel70 said...

Thanks for trying - again; all that work is definitely appreciated, perhaps somewhat in the same way that people appreciate life as a whole: introspectively... :D

J. Sterling Ellison said...

I add my thanks and appreciation to you and every other music blogger who runs a similar site. I've been here before, but only came back when looking for the Gil Mellé "Tome VI" rip. I hadn't been aware of the 22 month break. I hope you stick around. Thanks again.